God, and/or Goddess, created plant life.


(1 TIM 4:1) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
(1 TIM 4:2) Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
(1 TIM 4:3) Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.


(1 TIM 4:4) For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
(1 TIM 4:5) For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
(1 TIM 4:6) If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

"God knows I've tried!" - Tommy Smothers

"Name dropper!" - Dickie Smothers

Timothy Loftus cites "God" as supporting the vegetarian position. The BVRA responds: not so. Numerous citations given.

Using a forged address, (replies bounce), Timothy Loftus wrote:

From joe@joe.com Mon Jan 25 15:52:51 1999
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 17:51:19 -0500
Subject: ignorance

I think it is funny how you claim to have put your web page up to poke fun at narrow-mindedness when your own page could not be more narrow-minded. You cleverly avoid the REAL issues that the animal rights movement tries to address. If you had really researched the issue instead of reacting to fanatic animal lovers you would know what I am talking about. I suggest reading Animal Liberation by Dr. Peter Singer of Princeton University. I think you will be surprised to see that animal rights has a lot more to do with human attitudes than animal welfare or the actual "rights" of animals. I assume though that you will not read it and you will write it off as "propaganda." Who is narrowminded? One day, if mankind is to survive, we all be embarssed of web pages such as yours. -Timothy Loftus Maybe you should think about putting a few of these quotes on your page.

"Nothing will benefit human health and increase the chance for survival
of life on earth as the evolution of a vegetarian diet."    -Albert
Einstein

"What is it that should trace the insuperable line?...The question is
not, Can they reason? nor Can they talk? but, Can they
suffer?"                -Jeremy Bentham

"You have just dined, and however scrupulously the slaughterhouse is
concealed in the graceful distance of miles, there is
complicity."            -Ralph Waldo Emerson.

"You shalt not kill."      --God.


Members of the BVRA email list respond:

From Dick Dunn Tue Jan 26 22:05:23 1999
Subject: re: ignorance
Date: 26 Jan 99 21:53:59 MST (Tue)

It's too bad that the "ignorance" email was sent by someone hiding behind a forged address...you can really have fun with these folks if they'll let you talk with them. (OK, I don't *know* that it was forged...it just seems pretty unlikely given user-in-domain and that a New Jersey university is serving a Florida company which has no IP for that domain...)

But I got to thinking (woops!) about a couple of the quotes...

>Maybe you should think about putting a few of these quotes on your page.
>
>"Nothing will benefit human health and increase the chance for survival
>of life on earth as the evolution of a vegetarian diet."    -Albert
>Einstein

Aside from the dubious wisdom of using a theoretical physicist's words to guide human health...and aside from the cheap shot that we already *have* a mostly-vegetarian diet (most of the animals I eat are vegetarians)...I think the statement is interesting but--ahem--theoretical: if humans were to "evolve a vegetarian diet" wouldn't they first have to evolve into vege- tarians? We *are* omnivores.

>"You have just dined, and however scrupulously the slaughterhouse is
>concealed in the graceful distance of miles, there is
>complicity."            -Ralph Waldo Emerson.

Well, that's true enough, and yet I wonder whether Emerson really meant this to be a moral judgment. It might as reasonably have been an observation that the slaughterhouse is an essential component of how we eat and there-fore, what we are. We can't pretend it doesn't exist.

>"You shalt not kill."      --God.

"you shalt"??? Is this the King Jimmy translation? You'd think that if somebody cared about the Big Guy's words enough to quote him, he'd try to do better than a misquote of a mistranslation.

That quote is the one that actually prompted this particular waste of bandwidth I am inflicting on you folks. It's a common enough challenge from the strident veg-heads that one of the Ten Commandments says "Don't kill", that perhaps the bvra web page should try to answer it somewhere. Someone who's actually skimmed a bit of the Bible will recall that there's a lot of meat-eating going on, and it includes a handful of rules about that plus some catchy phrases. Understanding that, and also knowing that there's rather a lot of smiting-down going on in the Bible, I would think a person with only slightly more sense than gravel would think "Hey, why doesn't God lay the holy Bad Boogie on these folks when they chow down on that fatted calf?" God, being omnipotent, probably should have noticed this as an inconsistency between his commandments and punishments. The real (honest this part is serious) explanation is that the commandment doesn't say "Thou shalt not kill" because it turns out the Bible wasn't written in early-17th-century English. (This surprises more people than you can imagine.) Different languages have multiple words for multiple classifications of killing--we have kill, murder, slaughter, execute, etc. The original text of the Bible used a word in the commandment which refers to the act of one human killing another human...it is that which the commandment is intended to forbid. Perhaps the web page could have a little explanation here; maybe even for-fun dig up the actual word (which I assume is Hebrew) and a careful interpretation of the meaning?

I've got a quote or two of my own...one of my current favorites has the useful characteristic of being quite generally applicable:
"Against stupidity, the gods themselves contend in vain." --Schiller
---
Dick Dunn Hygiene, Colorado USA
...Don't lend your hand to raise no flag atop no ship of fools.

-----

From Drew Eckhardt Wed Jan 27 00:28:46 1999
Subject: Re: ignorance
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:27:28 -0700

Dick Dunn writes:
>>"You shalt not kill."      --God.
>
>"you shalt"???  Is this the King Jimmy translation?  You'd think that if
>somebody cared about the Big Guy's words enough to quote him, he'd try to
>do better than a misquote of a mistranslation.
>
>That quote is the one that actually prompted this particular waste of
>bandwidth I am inflicting on you folks.  It's a common enough challenge
>from the strident veg-heads that one of the Ten Commandments says "Don't
>kill", 

Exodus 20:13 uses the verb 'ratsach' from the root 'rasah' which has a very concise meaning: to murder a human. About a half dozen different words are used where the Bible discusses killing in battle ('harag'), accidental deaths, capital punishment, and self defense. 'Sahat' describes animal slaughters for food. Contrary to the King James translation, the Sixth Commandment does not read "Thou shalt not kill," and it does not include animals.

Apart from that, in Genesis 1:26 God gives us dominion over all animal life

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

and KJV 1 Timothy 4:1 calls vegetarianism a "doctrine of devils"

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

>Someone who's actually skimmed a bit of the Bible will recall that there's
>a lot of meat-eating going on, and it includes a handful of rules about
>that plus some catchy phrases.  

Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14 go into excruitiating detail over what one can and can't eat and seem a lot like a failed Monty Python parody.

>The original text of the Bible used a word in the commandment which refers
>to the act of one human killing another human...it is that which the
>commandment is intended to forbid.  

A better phrasing is "thou shalt not commit murder." Self defense and punishment for certain crimes are specifically permitted in other parts.

--
The Right Reverend Drew, Universal Life Church

From Drew Wed Jan 27 00:42:59 1999
Subject: Re: ignorance
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:41:55 -0700

In message <9901262153.AA06561@>,  Dick Dunn writes:
>It's too bad that the "ignorance" email was sent by someone hiding behind a
>forged address...you can really have fun with these folks if they'll let
>you talk with them.  

Recreational Christianity is best experienced as a participant, not on the side lines. Vegetarianism, the death penalty, and abortion are all fun courts for the experienced to play on. For the novice, I recommend making fun of the Pope's Hat.

--
For those who do, no explanation is necessary.
For those who don't, no explanation is possible.

From Dick Dunn Wed Jan 27 01:22:35 1999
Subject: Re: ignorance
Date: 27 Jan 99 01:19:56 MST (Wed)

Thanks to Drew for the reference...I'd contacted a friend who was likely to know the Hebrew, but he hadn't had time to answer.

> Exodus 20:13 uses the verb 'ratsach' from the root 'rasah' which has a very 
> concise meaning: to murder a human...
...
> ...Contrary to the King James translation,
> the Sixth Commandment does not read "Thou shalt not kill," and it does
> not include animals.

Just my point. We have many words for killing many different things; the fact that KJV was imprecise in its time and even more confusing when judged from almost 400 years later in a different language-context says "let's not call this knowledge".

> and KJV 1 Timothy 4:1 calls vegetarianism a "doctrine of devils"
> 
>     Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall
>     depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of
>     devils; 
>     Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with
>     a hot iron; 
>     Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats,
>     which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which
>     believe and know the truth.  
>     For every creature of God is good, and
>     nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 

Wheee! This *definitely* belongs somewhere on the bvra web-page! Thanks, Drew.

> >Someone who's actually skimmed a bit of the Bible will recall that there's
> >a lot of meat-eating going on, and it includes a handful of rules about
> >that plus some catchy phrases.  
> 
> Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14 go into excruitiating detail over what
> one can and can't eat and seem a lot like a failed Monty Python parody. 

If you've ever lived with someone who keeps kosher...

I don't want that to be too negative, mind you...for all the Jewish laws that are strange about how one handles food, I can't find anything as strange as the (Catholic) idea that celibate old men should advise young folks on birth control and family planning...and that the successor to God/Christ is elected.
---
Dick Dunn Hygiene, Colorado USA
...Don't lend your hand to raise no flag atop no ship of fools.

Thanks to The Right Reverend Drew, Universal Life Church!


Here are some more interesting citations from the Bible, about meat:

Ok to eat meat and plants, but not the flesh of life (life of man):


(GENESIS 9:3) Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.

Hunting OK:
(GENES 27:3) Now therefore take, I pray thee, thy weapons, thy quiver and thy bow, and go out to the field, and take me some venison;
(GENES 27:4) And make me savoury meat, such as I love, and bring it to me, that I may eat; that my soul may bless thee before I die.


(GENES 27:7) Bring me venison, and make me savoury meat, that I may eat, and bless thee before the LORD before my death.

Farm Animals OK:
(GENES 27:9) Go now to the flock, and fetch me from thence two good kids of the goats; and I will make them savoury meat for thy father, such as he loveth:


(GENES 27:14) And he went, and fetched, and brought them to his mother: and his mother made savoury meat, such as his father loved.


(GENES 27:17) And she gave the savoury meat and the bread, which she had prepared, into the hand of her son Jacob.


(GENES 27:31) And he also had made savoury meat, and brought it unto his father, and said unto his father, Let my father arise, and eat of his son's venison, that thy soul may bless me.


(GENES 45:23) And to his father he sent after this manner; ten asses laden with the good things of Egypt, and ten she asses laden with corn and bread and meat for his father by the way.

Then there are lots of animal sacrifice instructions:


(EXODU 29:41) And the other lamb thou shalt offer at even, and shalt do thereto according to the meat offering of the morning, and according to the drink offering thereof, for a sweet savour, an offering made by fire unto the LORD.


(EXODU 30:9) Ye shall offer no strange incense thereon, nor burnt sacrifice, nor meat offering; neither shall ye pour drink offering thereon.


(EXODU 40:29) And he put the altar of burnt offering by the door of the tabernacle of the tent of the congregation, and offered upon it the burnt offering and the meat offering; as the LORD commanded Moses.


(LEVIT 2:1) And when any will offer a meat offering unto the LORD, his offering shall be of fine flour; and he shall pour oil upon it, and put frankincense thereon:


(LEVIT 2:3) And the remnant of the meat offering shall be Aaron's and his sons': it is a thing most holy of the offerings of the LORD made by fire.
(LEVIT 2:4) And if thou bring an oblation of a meat offering baken in the oven, it shall be unleavened cakes of fine flour mingled with oil, or unleavened wafers anointed with oil.
(LEVIT 2:5) And if thy oblation be a meat offering baken in a pan, it shall be of fine flour unleavened, mingled with oil.
(LEVIT 2:6) Thou shalt part it in pieces, and pour oil thereon: it is a meat offering.


(LEVIT 2:7) And if thy oblation be a meat offering baken in the fryingpan, it shall be made of fine flour with oil.
(LEVIT 2:8) And thou shalt bring the meat offering that is made of these things unto the LORD: and when it is presented unto the priest, he shall bring it unto the altar.
(LEVIT 2:9) And the priest shall take from the meat offering a memorial thereof, and shall burn it upon the altar: it is an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.
(LEVIT 2:10) And that which is left of the meat offering shall be Aaron's and his sons': it is a thing most holy of the offerings of the LORD made by fire.
(LEVIT 2:11) No meat offering, which ye shall bring unto the LORD, shall be made with leaven: for ye shall burn no leaven, nor any honey, in any offering of the LORD made by fire.
(LEVIT 2:12) As for the oblation of the firstfruits, ye shall offer them unto the LORD: but they shall not be burnt on the altar for a sweet savour.
(LEVIT 2:13) And every oblation of thy meat offering shalt thou season with salt; neither shalt thou suffer the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thy meat offering: with all thine offerings thou shalt offer salt.
(LEVIT 2:14) And if thou offer a meat offering of thy firstfruits unto the LORD, thou shalt offer for the meat offering of thy firstfruits green ears of corn dried by the fire, even corn beaten out of full ears.
(LEVIT 2:15) And thou shalt put oil upon it, and lay frankincense thereon: it is a meat offering.


(HEBRE 12:16) Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

LEVIT 22:11) But if the priest buy any soul with his money, he shall eat of it, and he that is born in his house: they shall eat of his meat.


(LEVIT 22:13) But if the priest's daughter be a widow, or divorced, and have no child, and is returned unto her father's house, as in her youth, she shall eat of her father's meat: but there shall be no stranger eat thereof.

NUMBE 4:16) And to the office of Eleazar the son of Aaron the priest pertaineth the oil for the light, and the sweet incense, and the daily meat offering, and the anointing oil, and the oversight of all the tabernacle, and of all that therein is, in the sanctuary, and in the vessels thereof.


(NUMBE 15:3) And will make an offering by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, or a sacrifice in performing a vow, or in a freewill offering, or in your solemn feasts, to make a sweet savour unto the LORD, of the herd or of the flock:


(NUMBE 15:4) Then shall he that offereth his offering unto the LORD bring a meat offering of a tenth deal of flour mingled with the fourth part of an hin of oil.


(NUMBE 15:5) And the fourth part of an hin of wine for a drink offering shalt thou prepare with the burnt offering or sacrifice, for one lamb.


(NUMBE 15:6) Or for a ram, thou shalt prepare for a meat offering two tenth deals of flour mingled with the third part of an hin of oil.


(JUDGE 14:13) But if ye cannot declare it me, then shall ye give me thirty sheets and thirty change of garments. And they said unto him, Put forth thy riddle, that we may hear it.


(JUDGE 14:14) And he said unto them, Out of the eater came forth meat, and out of the strong came forth sweetness. And they could not in three days expound the riddle.


(JUDGE 14:15) And it came to pass on the seventh day, that they said unto Samson's wife, Entice thy husband, that he may declare unto us the riddle, lest we burn thee and thy father's house with fire: have ye called us to take that we have? is it not so?

Giving meat in abundance:


(JOB 36:30) Behold, he spreadeth his light upon it, and covereth the bottom of the sea.


(JOB 36:31) For by them judgeth he the people; he giveth meat in abundance.

Meat as allegory:


(PSALM 44:11) Thou hast given us like sheep appointed for meat; and hast scattered us among the heathen.


(PSALM 74:14) Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness.


(PSALM 78:23) Though he had commanded the clouds from above, and opened the doors of heaven,
(PSALM 78:24) And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven.
(PSALM 78:25) Man did eat angels' food: he sent them meat to the full.
(PSALM 78:26) He caused an east wind to blow in the heaven: and by his power he brought in the south wind.
(PSALM 78:27) He rained flesh also upon them as dust, and feathered fowls like as the sand of the sea:
(PSALM 78:28) And he let it fall in the midst of their camp, round about their habitations.


(PSALM 107:17) Fools because of their transgression, and because of their iniquities, are afflicted.
(PSALM 107:18) Their soul abhorreth all manner of meat; and they draw near unto the gates of death.
(PSALM 107:19) Then they cry unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saveth them out of their distresses.


(JOEL 1:16) Is not the meat cut off before our eyes, yea, joy and gladness from the house of our God?


(MATTH 3:4) And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.


(MATTH 9:10) And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.


(MATTH 15:33) And his disciples say unto him, Whence should we have so much bread in the wilderness, as to fill so great a multitude?
(MATTH 15:34) And Jesus saith unto them, How many loaves have ye? And they said, Seven, and a few little fishes.
(MATTH 15:35) And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the ground.
(MATTH 15:36) And he took the seven loaves and the fishes, and gave thanks, and brake them, and gave to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitude.
(MATTH 15:37) And they did all eat, and were filled: and they took up of the broken meat that was left seven baskets full.
(MATTH 15:38) And they that did eat were four thousand men, beside women and children.
(LUKE 24:36) And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
(LUKE 24:37) But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
(LUKE 24:38) And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
(LUKE 24:39) Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
(LUKE 24:40) And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
(LUKE 24:41) And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
(LUKE 24:42) And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
(LUKE 24:43) And he took it, and did eat before them.
(JOHN 4:32) But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of.
(JOHN 4:33) Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat?
(JOHN 4:34) Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.


(JOHN 6:54) Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
(JOHN 6:55) For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
(JOHN 6:56) He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
(JOHN 6:57) As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.


(ACTS 27:33) And while the day was coming on, Paul besought them all to take meat, saying, This day is the fourteenth day that ye have tarried and continued fasting, having taken nothing.
(ACTS 27:34) Wherefore I pray you to take some meat: for this is for your health: for there shall not an hair fall from the head of any of you.
(ACTS 27:35) And when he had thus spoken, he took bread, and gave thanks to God in presence of them all: and when he had broken it, he began to eat.
(ACTS 27:36) Then were they all of good cheer, and they also took some meat.


(1 COR 10:2) And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
(1 COR 10:3) And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
(1 COR 10:4) And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


(COLOS 2:16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
(COLOS 2:17) Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


(HEBRE 5:12) For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
(HEBRE 5:13) For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
(HEBRE 5:14) But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


(1 TIM 4:1) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
(1 TIM 4:2) Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
(1 TIM 4:3) Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.


(1 TIM 4:4) For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
(1 TIM 4:5) For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
(1 TIM 4:6) If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.